Poland 2007: Interview with Henryk Mandelbaum

We are a young and energetic group, pulling some long days on the road. We rise early, pack in the meetings and visits during the day, and don't find our way back to bed until late. But Henryk Mandelbaum, survivor of Auschwitz-Birkenau and former member of the sonderkommando, easily outpaced us all, despite - or, perhaps, because of - his 85 years.

The partial transcript of our interview with Mr. Mandelbaum at Birkenau follows. Bear in mind that this took place on the move, so periodically he refers to buildings and other structures that he passes by:

TLP: What are your feelings, standing here, today?

Mr. Mandelbaum: We are now in the largest cemetery in the world. Here is crematorium 2, with crematorium 3 three meters away; they were twins, built in the same manner as crematorium 4 and 5. This is a modern crematorium in comparison to crematorium 4 and 5. There were 15 ovens. 15 ovens were running, all this was walled up, and it looked like a small castle - small, pretty castle - and no one could say that this was a crematorium. You could see rails over there - those through the main entrance - you could see them when you got to Oswiecim. So, when a transport arrived, they had to get out of there with what they had brought with them - a small suitcase with few items in it. They did not have much. They used to arrive in cattle cars with no water. You can imagine what it was like.

Traveling days and nights with little air, no chance to relieve yourself. They were being treated worse than cattle. They (SS) knew that those people were doomed but the people themselves did not know that, having been told that they were going to work. After getting out they were led to the showers. That sounded convincing - get washed before you go to work. As I told you earlier, there was a small selection at that time. Young and strong men and women were selected out for genuine work and the rest were taken to the showers. And to get washed what did they take with them? A towel, soap, toothbrush. Here, there was a space for undressing.

There were two shower rooms and each was approximately 30 by 40. Behind each group that was led to the shower rooms there was a Red Cross Ambulance in which containers with Zyklon gas were kept. The ambulance came either from that or the other side. The SS men led the people from the transport down the steps to the undressing area, which was equipped with hooks and benches where people could put their clothing. When benches and hooks were full, they put the clothes on the ground and went into the showers. As the room was filled people realized that there are too many of them and they wanted to go back. But then the SS men started hitting people over their heads with heavy sticks and pushed them in and when the space was filled the door was locked. The Zyklon was then removed from the ambulance and poured into the opening in the roof. Usually six cans were used, and in this way the people were gassed. As the moisture generated by the people massed in the room, the Zyklon powder dissolved and evaporated. As people breathed in, they inhaled the toxic gas and died. It took approximately 20 to 30 minutes to kill. We, as the members of the Sondercommando, had to pull out the dead bodies and transport them up to the crematorium in a hoist. However, before they were burnt we had to shave the hair and look for gold in their mouths, noses and vaginas. From that hoist we had to pull those bodies into the oven. When I first came and started pulling those bodies on the ground it was very hard, because a body would not readily glide - the friction was so high - and so I poured a bucket of water to make it go. The bodies were put onto a platform that was moved up by two of us on a set of rollers and pushed into the oven. We had a third companion who had a bar made up of heavy wire in the form of a letter X, and used it to push in the crotch, so that the legs would not stick out and the crematorium door could be closed. There, you could see the air blowers that provided a stream of air for each oven to allow for a faster burning. These were modern crematoria, not like crematorium 5, where the bodies were burnt in the pits. So, here the job was much easier; we worked under the roof and it was done well. The ashes were taken out, removed, compacted and, when there were a lot of them, dumped in the Vistula. We slept in the crematorium building upstairs, whereas in crematorium 5 we slept in a barrack not far from the Strafcommando.

As you can see my friends, the camp is surrounded by barbed wire and live current, every 50m there was a guard post with an SS man with machine gun, so the possibilities of escaping were really nil. If you wanted to escape, then you could run into barbed wire and die. We all were waiting for help, that this help would someday arrive. We all worked but we still had hope that some help would come from up there, from the left side, right side, from the back - but no one came. There was no one to stop this horrendous murder. It is very difficult to talk about. A normal person just cannot believe that all this could have happened. Unfortunately, my friends, this is all true. I was a member of the Sondercommando and I have seen it all. My eyes looked at it, my hands worked, but to survive, I had to do it. And even if I did not want to do it, and the second and the third also did not want to do it, the fifth would come and do it. Everybody can be replaced. And I fought to survive, to be with you and other groups who I deal with. And I do it with one purpose in mind - that young and innocent people will never go to the gas chamber again. That there will be no wars, terrorism, antagonism, or egoism. What else can I tell you? Do you see those trees? They could tell you much more than I can.

Because what do you get from war? Ruins, broken homes, destroyed factories, invalids, orphans, widows and widowers. After the war it all has to be rebuilt, so the people not only have to support themselves but they also must work to rebuild the country. Do we need this? Of course not. There is a lack of understanding and very little, if I may say so, good heart. We don't need anything more. My friends, when you look at this, you realize that it should not be so, and it is hard to deal with. After all one lives, the time comes to die and he leaves everything behind. He is followed by others - children are born and this continues generation after generation. But it should be arranged somehow to prevent the wars, to prevent the suffering of the people. For what do they suffer? What do they go to war for, to die or to become an invalid? How do you stop it?

You can see how quiet it is here. As I told you these two camps were situated between two rivers, the Vistula on the right side and the Sola flows on the left. Even then, the population of the surrounding area was displaced. So, they did what they wanted. No one came to stop it. The transports were arriving day and night. We were working three shifts, so this factory of death was running day and night. Factory of death, of innocent people, young and old, men and women, children. And that is how it was. I fought to survive. I risked my life but I was lucky, and now I tell you this and ask the young people who will take over the positions in institutions and parliaments to make sure that the nation will live well.

TLP: Many people who survived the camp left Poland after the war. Did you feel like doing it?

Mr. Mandelbaum: Listen. I was born here, this is my country. It is the same with you. Who is born in America is American, who is born in Germany is a German. The country is his mother. If I go to another country I know neither language nor customs... Here I am at home. Each slice of bread has two sides, upper and lower. In a foreign country I would not feel at home. I lived here since my childhood. I don't feel discriminated. Even before the war our neighbors would come to my parents' home for potato pancakes. They would come, they would enjoy the companionship, and this is how it should be. There should not be any anti-Semitism. And people cause all this. Why should they do it? It should not be so. They should work together. They should work for each other so that life will be better as generations replace each other.

TLP: What lesson can you draw from the imprisonment?

Mr. Mandelbaum: What lesson? For a man who went through all that and returned almost from the other world as I did, and is free now, then this freedom has to be respected. All that is around us should be respected and we should respect all people. We should respect each other. We should advise each other and help if need be. Each of us has a lot to take care of and should be advised how to do it to avoid a wrong move, if this would lead to unpleasant consequences. And sometimes one needs to tell another where to go or how to do it because everyone does not know everything; we learn from one another. And we should bear in mind that what surrounds us is the hard work of generations, of our great grandfathers, grandfathers, fathers, mothers. It all has been accomplished with hard work and sweat. Now someone comes, he does not like it, he does not want it, and destroys it. When it is destroyed it has to be rebuilt.

In order to rebuild money is needed, whether it is paid from the budget of cities or countries; in the end it comes from people who work. So, we all need to collaborate and help each other. And that is life. We don't live forever. We are tenants on this earth; we don't take anything with us. Even if you are a multimillionaire you don't take anything with you in the coffin. Six feet under and you leave everything behind.

So I ask you, what is the need for the wars? What is the need for quarrels among people? What is the need for courts, prisons etc, etc? Who needs it? No one needs it. And who is responsible? People are responsible. Not animals but people. There is a Polish proverb: "How you make up your bed, that's how you will sleep." IsnÕt this true?

If I don't sleep well on one pillow then I ask for another. I get it and I am comfortable. I thank you and kiss the hand. That's how it should be. It is not important that this one is a Gypsy or the other is a Jew, or yet another American or English or German. All children in this world are born in the same way. And, they are born to live. So let them live in comfort. Without mutual killings, without wars. You are young; all will be in your hands. Your fathers and grandfathers worked on what you now take over. When you take over you should try to increase the value for your children so that they will be better off, so that they will not have to work as hard as you have and enjoy life. And so on from generation to generation. And one should live well with neighbors, maintain good relations between countries. That is it. That is all.

TLP: We are in a place associated with sad and horrible events. You too have taken from here a lot of sad and painful memories. What is the joyful aspect of your life now? What gives you happiness in your life now?

Mr. Mandelbaum: I am happy that I live and also that I have lived through many years and have tasted life. From my childhood I know what work means. I worked for 17 years on a truck, I met important people, professors, directors, etc.; I had good relations with everyone and no arguments. I respect everyone. On a daily basis I say "Good Day" to everyone I meet and help if there is a need. For example, a lady passes by carrying two shopping bags and, although I also have a shopping bag and a cane, I go to her and suggest my help because I think she needs it. She at first looks at me distrustfully but then relents and we walk together chatting. A couple of days later we meet again in a tram or at the butcher's, or in the baker's shop, we exchange pleasantries, talk on the subject of families, and then even on general human subjects. Everyone wants to know something new, talk about his youth, what he was doing, what friends he had. I am happy that I live, that I can meet with you, with other groups, that I can tell you all about it, pass on all of that. And I would like to ask you, to make sure that the next generation should live better, to work honestly, to not destroy the fruits of one's labor. As I said earlier, no one takes anything with him. And over there, there will be a lot of time to chat, and one will say, "I have built a five-story apartment house" and the other will say "I had a factory," and yet another, "I worked hard in that factory," and then someone would say "I wanted to do that, but I did not, and would do it gladly today." But now it is too late. It should have been done then, when there was time for it. There is a Polish proverb "What you are supposed to eat today eat tomorrow, but what you have to do tomorrow, do today." Time flies; one says a word and a moment later he is already older. There is no return. So, I think that when we start to reflect on and consider all this, we find that so much depends on us. To live well in any community or country, we must work well and honestly. Don't waste your time and effort and save. I do that even now today.

I have a big garden and keep it watered; however, I do not use tap water but rely on my water circulation system of 1500 liters. Also, when I wash my automobile, I only need two to three liters of water and can do it better than a guy who keeps spraying it with 200 liters of tap water. There is no life without water and one should try to save as much as one can. Yet, when I was going to see you yesterday I watered my flowers, so that they would not cry from thirst. One has to be conscientious, punctual, and polite, and keep smiling.

When you have a doctor's appointment he will ask you, "do you sleep well, what do you eat, is there anything bothering you?" You have to smile and work out a bit to keep healthy. You should not spend your time in front of the TV watching serials. Perhaps a good movie - that's OK. But where are they now? They start with love and end with killings - boo, boo, boo.

	Poland 2007: Henryk Mandelbaum
Home	We are a young and energetic group, pulling some long days on the road. We rise early, pack in the meetings and visits during the day, and don't find our way back to bed until late. But Henryk Mandelbaum, survivor of Auschwitz-Birkenau and former member of the sonderkommando, easily outpaced us all, despite - or, perhaps, because of - his 85 years. The partial transcript of our interview with Mr. Mandelbaum at Birkenau follows. Bear in mind that this took place on the move, so periodically he refers to buildings and other structures that he passes by: TLP: What are your feelings, standing here, today? Mr. Mandelbaum: We are now in the largest cemetery in the world. Here is crematorium 2, with crematorium 3 three meters away; they were twins, built in the same manner as crematorium 4 and 5. This is a modern crematorium in comparison to crematorium 4 and 5. There were 15 ovens. 15 ovens were running, all this was walled up, and it looked like a small castle - small, pretty castle - and no one could say that this was a crematorium. You could see rails over there - those through the main entrance - you could see them when you got to Oswiecim. So, when a transport arrived, they had to get out of there with what they had brought with them - a small suitcase with few items in it. They did not have much. They used to arrive in cattle cars with no water. You can imagine what it was like. Traveling days and nights with little air, no chance to relieve yourself. They were being treated worse than cattle. They (SS) knew that those people were doomed but the people themselves did not know that, having been told that they were going to work. After getting out they were led to the showers. That sounded convincing - get washed before you go to work. As I told you earlier, there was a small selection at that time. Young and strong men and women were selected out for genuine work and the rest were taken to the showers. And to get washed what did they take with them? A towel, soap, toothbrush. Here, there was a space for undressing. There were two shower rooms and each was approximately 30 by 40. Behind each group that was led to the shower rooms there was a Red Cross Ambulance in which containers with Zyklon gas were kept. The ambulance came either from that or the other side. The SS men led the people from the transport down the steps to the undressing area, which was equipped with hooks and benches where people could put their clothing. When benches and hooks were full, they put the clothes on the ground and went into the showers. As the room was filled people realized that there are too many of them and they wanted to go back. But then the SS men started hitting people over their heads with heavy sticks and pushed them in and when the space was filled the door was locked. The Zyklon was then removed from the ambulance and poured into the opening in the roof. Usually six cans were used, and in this way the people were gassed. As the moisture generated by the people massed in the room, the Zyklon powder dissolved and evaporated. As people breathed in, they inhaled the toxic gas and died. It took approximately 20 to 30 minutes to kill. We, as the members of the Sondercommando, had to pull out the dead bodies and transport them up to the crematorium in a hoist. However, before they were burnt we had to shave the hair and look for gold in their mouths, noses and vaginas. From that hoist we had to pull those bodies into the oven. When I first came and started pulling those bodies on the ground it was very hard, because a body would not readily glide - the friction was so high - and so I poured a bucket of water to make it go. The bodies were put onto a platform that was moved up by two of us on a set of rollers and pushed into the oven. We had a third companion who had a bar made up of heavy wire in the form of a letter X, and used it to push in the crotch, so that the legs would not stick out and the crematorium door could be closed. There, you could see the air blowers that provided a stream of air for each oven to allow for a faster burning. These were modern crematoria, not like crematorium 5, where the bodies were burnt in the pits. So, here the job was much easier; we worked under the roof and it was done well. The ashes were taken out, removed, compacted and, when there were a lot of them, dumped in the Vistula. We slept in the crematorium building upstairs, whereas in crematorium 5 we slept in a barrack not far from the Strafcommando. As you can see my friends, the camp is surrounded by barbed wire and live current, every 50m there was a guard post with an SS man with machine gun, so the possibilities of escaping were really nil. If you wanted to escape, then you could run into barbed wire and die. We all were waiting for help, that this help would someday arrive. We all worked but we still had hope that some help would come from up there, from the left side, right side, from the back - but no one came. There was no one to stop this horrendous murder. It is very difficult to talk about. A normal person just cannot believe that all this could have happened. Unfortunately, my friends, this is all true. I was a member of the Sondercommando and I have seen it all. My eyes looked at it, my hands worked, but to survive, I had to do it. And even if I did not want to do it, and the second and the third also did not want to do it, the fifth would come and do it. Everybody can be replaced. And I fought to survive, to be with you and other groups who I deal with. And I do it with one purpose in mind - that young and innocent people will never go to the gas chamber again. That there will be no wars, terrorism, antagonism, or egoism. What else can I tell you? Do you see those trees? They could tell you much more than I can. Because what do you get from war? Ruins, broken homes, destroyed factories, invalids, orphans, widows and widowers. After the war it all has to be rebuilt, so the people not only have to support themselves but they also must work to rebuild the country. Do we need this? Of course not. There is a lack of understanding and very little, if I may say so, good heart. We don't need anything more. My friends, when you look at this, you realize that it should not be so, and it is hard to deal with. After all one lives, the time comes to die and he leaves everything behind. He is followed by others - children are born and this continues generation after generation. But it should be arranged somehow to prevent the wars, to prevent the suffering of the people. For what do they suffer? What do they go to war for, to die or to become an invalid? How do you stop it? You can see how quiet it is here. As I told you these two camps were situated between two rivers, the Vistula on the right side and the Sola flows on the left. Even then, the population of the surrounding area was displaced. So, they did what they wanted. No one came to stop it. The transports were arriving day and night. We were working three shifts, so this factory of death was running day and night. Factory of death, of innocent people, young and old, men and women, children. And that is how it was. I fought to survive. I risked my life but I was lucky, and now I tell you this and ask the young people who will take over the positions in institutions and parliaments to make sure that the nation will live well. TLP: Many people who survived the camp left Poland after the war. Did you feel like doing it? Mr. Mandelbaum: Listen. I was born here, this is my country. It is the same with you. Who is born in America is American, who is born in Germany is a German. The country is his mother. If I go to another country I know neither language nor customs... Here I am at home. Each slice of bread has two sides, upper and lower. In a foreign country I would not feel at home. I lived here since my childhood. I don't feel discriminated. Even before the war our neighbors would come to my parents' home for potato pancakes. They would come, they would enjoy the companionship, and this is how it should be. There should not be any anti-Semitism. And people cause all this. Why should they do it? It should not be so. They should work together. They should work for each other so that life will be better as generations replace each other. TLP: What lesson can you draw from the imprisonment? Mr. Mandelbaum: What lesson? For a man who went through all that and returned almost from the other world as I did, and is free now, then this freedom has to be respected. All that is around us should be respected and we should respect all people. We should respect each other. We should advise each other and help if need be. Each of us has a lot to take care of and should be advised how to do it to avoid a wrong move, if this would lead to unpleasant consequences. And sometimes one needs to tell another where to go or how to do it because everyone does not know everything; we learn from one another. And we should bear in mind that what surrounds us is the hard work of generations, of our great grandfathers, grandfathers, fathers, mothers. It all has been accomplished with hard work and sweat. Now someone comes, he does not like it, he does not want it, and destroys it. When it is destroyed it has to be rebuilt. In order to rebuild money is needed, whether it is paid from the budget of cities or countries; in the end it comes from people who work. So, we all need to collaborate and help each other. And that is life. We don't live forever. We are tenants on this earth; we don't take anything with us. Even if you are a multimillionaire you don't take anything with you in the coffin. Six feet under and you leave everything behind. So I ask you, what is the need for the wars? What is the need for quarrels among people? What is the need for courts, prisons etc, etc? Who needs it? No one needs it. And who is responsible? People are responsible. Not animals but people. There is a Polish proverb: "How you make up your bed, that's how you will sleep." IsnÕt this true? If I don't sleep well on one pillow then I ask for another. I get it and I am comfortable. I thank you and kiss the hand. That's how it should be. It is not important that this one is a Gypsy or the other is a Jew, or yet another American or English or German. All children in this world are born in the same way. And, they are born to live. So let them live in comfort. Without mutual killings, without wars. You are young; all will be in your hands. Your fathers and grandfathers worked on what you now take over. When you take over you should try to increase the value for your children so that they will be better off, so that they will not have to work as hard as you have and enjoy life. And so on from generation to generation. And one should live well with neighbors, maintain good relations between countries. That is it. That is all. TLP: We are in a place associated with sad and horrible events. You too have taken from here a lot of sad and painful memories. What is the joyful aspect of your life now? What gives you happiness in your life now? Mr. Mandelbaum: I am happy that I live and also that I have lived through many years and have tasted life. From my childhood I know what work means. I worked for 17 years on a truck, I met important people, professors, directors, etc.; I had good relations with everyone and no arguments. I respect everyone. On a daily basis I say "Good Day" to everyone I meet and help if there is a need. For example, a lady passes by carrying two shopping bags and, although I also have a shopping bag and a cane, I go to her and suggest my help because I think she needs it. She at first looks at me distrustfully but then relents and we walk together chatting. A couple of days later we meet again in a tram or at the butcher's, or in the baker's shop, we exchange pleasantries, talk on the subject of families, and then even on general human subjects. Everyone wants to know something new, talk about his youth, what he was doing, what friends he had. I am happy that I live, that I can meet with you, with other groups, that I can tell you all about it, pass on all of that. And I would like to ask you, to make sure that the next generation should live better, to work honestly, to not destroy the fruits of one's labor. As I said earlier, no one takes anything with him. And over there, there will be a lot of time to chat, and one will say, "I have built a five-story apartment house" and the other will say "I had a factory," and yet another, "I worked hard in that factory," and then someone would say "I wanted to do that, but I did not, and would do it gladly today." But now it is too late. It should have been done then, when there was time for it. There is a Polish proverb "What you are supposed to eat today eat tomorrow, but what you have to do tomorrow, do today." Time flies; one says a word and a moment later he is already older. There is no return. So, I think that when we start to reflect on and consider all this, we find that so much depends on us. To live well in any community or country, we must work well and honestly. Don't waste your time and effort and save. I do that even now today. I have a big garden and keep it watered; however, I do not use tap water but rely on my water circulation system of 1500 liters. Also, when I wash my automobile, I only need two to three liters of water and can do it better than a guy who keeps spraying it with 200 liters of tap water. There is no life without water and one should try to save as much as one can. Yet, when I was going to see you yesterday I watered my flowers, so that they would not cry from thirst. One has to be conscientious, punctual, and polite, and keep smiling. When you have a doctor's appointment he will ask you, "do you sleep well, what do you eat, is there anything bothering you?" You have to smile and work out a bit to keep healthy. You should not spend your time in front of the TV watching serials. Perhaps a good movie - that's OK. But where are they now? They start with love and end with killings - boo, boo, boo.
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Poland 2007: Henryk Mandelbaum